should the gsd be split into two breeds

The pedigree data base has a post on this, should the gsd and the alsation be split into two breeds.
our dogs are also running a poll on this through there web site .
what do our members think ?

How do you separate a GSD from an Alsatian? They are the same thing. What would be the difference between the breeds?

Umm.. I once asked my Granddad why some people called the German Shepherd Alsatian, he then told me it was because after WW 2 people didn't want a German Shepherd because of it's name, so it got changed to Alsatian in England (could have been more places, but England is the only one i remember) So i don't really get how they can split them in to two breeds..
German Shepherd and Alsatian is the same thing, isn't it?

I was ignorant until I met you lot cos I always thought Alsatian was the short haired variety and German Shepherd was the long haired and its amazing the amount of people that do think that.

Kari wrote:

Umm.. I once asked my Granddad why some people called the German Shepherd Alsatian, he then told me it was because after WW 2 people didn't want a German Shepherd because of it's name, so it got changed to Alsatian in England (could have been more places, but England is the only one i remember) So i don't really get how they can split them in to two breeds..
German Shepherd and Alsatian is the same thing, isn't it?

This is true,thats why the name
was changed originaly,so they are one and the same thing.

SUMMER wrote:

Kari wrote:

Umm.. I once asked my Granddad why some people called the German Shepherd Alsatian, he then told me it was because after WW 2 people didn't want a German Shepherd because of it's name, so it got changed to Alsatian in England (could have been more places, but England is the only one i remember) So i don't really get how they can split them in to two breeds..
German Shepherd and Alsatian is the same thing, isn't it?

This is true,thats why the name
was changed originaly,so they are one and the same thing.

aww.. Thank You.. i was beginning to think my memory failed me and i was getting old.. lol
But it was 25 years ago he told me, so i've googled it and noticed it was world war 1 not 2

As far as I understand the alsation is the german shepherd

that is right Storm :san53:

But here in Norway will seperate the gsd in two categories...I think it is silly... They would have one category for showdogs and one for working dogs.... and the working dogs can`t enter the shows... I just found out about this...and I am pissed...

My dog has both show lines and working lines.. where will they put her???

Well that seems pretty unfair. f a dog is suitable for both then why shouldn't they be able to enter both? Wonder what the logic is behind that??

as I said..it is silly..and they also want to make a rule abour breeding the gsd... show lines.....just show dogs, and working dogs just working dogs...

So it you mate a showdog with a working dog... it cannot enter shows...

But the showdogs can do working.

The norwegian dog registratoin can :kismyars:

kennym wrote:

The pedigree data base has a post on this, should the gsd and the alsation be split into two breeds.
our dogs are also running a poll on this through there web site .
what do our members think ?

How are they thinking of spitting them?

kennym wrote:

The pedigree data base has a post on this, should the gsd and the alsation be split into two breeds.
our dogs are also running a poll on this through there web site .
what do our members think ?

Naa, there is no point - they are the same breed with different names, aren't they?

i dont think you can split them in to just two lol as you have so many diff strains your eng WG DDR dutch ect ect i only buy working bred dogs so dont care if they can show or not as i dont want to do it but you also have ppl who breed just pet sheps too so how can they seperate in to just two lol

off to look at the thread lol

ahhh ok they are on bout the eng lines vs the german so my point again my true idea of a GSD is more your DDR/czech dutch ect sheps not the more WG or eng lines as both stand now and that again doesnt mean i dont like the others just they are talking about weak temperment ect yes the eng lines do have that more so but then so do IMO a lot of show line dogs * you get the expseptions yes* but as i have said b4 show ppl dont want a cival dog in the show ring do they? or a dog with extreme drives as yes working dogs are bred to be stable also but they are a diff breed altogether in some respects and are not pets really and to say they are IMO is stupid as i work my dogs i know wat they are caperble of just my thoughts lol x

Well after reading Fazza's post and seeing they want to seperate the English lines and the German lines, wouldn't that be kind of hard? some have both lines in their breeding.

this is true hun its a load of crap if you ask me as IMO the working shepherd is the real GSD * again doesnt mean i have a hate for any others as i dont* so wat we gonna do split the working lines from the show

and for some f**k witts on there to say the eng lines are working lines these ppl should find a new place in life as knowing bout the breed isnt something they are up on lol

a lot of show ppl are wanting rich colours certain confirmation ect ect well us working ppl dont give a rats arse bout that we want drive strong nevres ect one reason i have moved to the malinois and also one of the big reasons theres a huge diff in size type and look of a working mali as they dont breed for looks more working ability

i found this intresting someone posted lol i have to bring labs in this as some ppl havent a clue wat working labs look like and think they are big dumb silly dogs like the big fat pet/show types you see that look nothing like my pure working lab so reading this made me laugh lol

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5536800.ece

Breeding for Show Causes Stupid Dogs

THE desire of pet owners for attractive-looking dogs has eroded the mental agility and alertness of the working breeds from which they are descended, researchers have suggested.

Only a century ago, guard dogs had to protect houses or livestock, and gun dogs needed to find and pick up dead birds to justify their upkeep.

Now, however, their descendants are merely required to look attractive. The behaviour expected of them is to be friendly and docile at home, rather than alert and aggressive outside.

Scientists in Sweden have found strong evidence that breeding modern dogs for their appearance has led to a decline in intelligence.

A separate group of researchers from Lincoln University is to investigate whether this is linked to the dogs’ loss of a working role. Pilot studies suggest so-called working breeds perform particularly badly in tests of attentiveness and responsiveness.

Kenth Svartberg, author of the Swedish research, said the changes in intelligence had happened over just a few generations.

“Modern breeding practices are affecting the behaviour and mental abilities of pedigree breeds as well as their physical features,” he said.

Researchers believe too many breeders are now concentrating on outward aspects and ignoring the mental qualities of dogs to appeal to modern pet owners and the dog shows that dictate the characteristics of pure breeds.

The trend has been exacerbated by inbreeding.

Pedigree bulldogs, for example, often have genetic defects that lead to skin and coat problems, breathing disorders, joint problems and cleft palates.

Svartberg, who carried out his research at Stockholm University, gave 10 tests to 13,000 dogs to rate 31 breeds on characteristics such as sociability and curiosity.

He found that, in general, animals that were bred for appearance, and especially for shows, displayed reduced levels of all these qualities.

The worst affected breeds included smooth collies and rhodesian ridgebacks. These showed low interest in exercises to test their curiosity and sociability and were also likely to walk away from a strange object.

Svartberg found there were also variations within breeds according to what the particular dogs had been bred for.

He said attractive appearance was often linked with introversion and a boring personality.

“Perhaps the genes behind attractive looks could also be closely linked [on the same chromosome] to those that cause fearfulness,” he said.

i dont like the name 'Alsation' :nhy:
don't know why
:2445: even though i own 2
to me they are German Sheperds
thats that

exactly hun but they are trying to say your type are alsations and the wg are the german type well what about the other types

there is some slagging off being done there and the only sence i see is from two working dog ppl lol

their beef is with the eng type and it shouldnt be associated with "thier" type GEEZE sounds a bit like hitler but hey watever lol

Sandra wrote:

Well after reading Fazza's post and seeing they want to seperate the English lines and the German lines, wouldn't that be kind of hard? some have both lines in their breeding.

evy and kari you are both correct and they are the same dog,the problem now is that after the pedigree dog progranmme that was recently shown the KC have decided to change the breed standard but the photo they are showing on thier web site is of the english type(alsation) which does not comply with the breed standard.
GR8GSD the working people are putting a good argument but they dont show so dont breed to the standard.Remember for a gsd to be shown in germany it has to have working qualification. so it has to have working and comply with the international standard which is set by the SV in germany, the gsd winner at crufts 2008 was zamp von thermados (top winning german dog) the programme was biased and edited to make it look like ZAMP was the poor dog that was been shown but they edited the film to show the manchester champ show and not the crufts winning dog. the gsd breed council ,the gsd lge and bagsd have now joined forces to push the kc put as always the kc refused to make compulsery all the health screening that the gsd breeders already us as this would cost them money with registrations. our pups are sold with the kc endorsement (progeny not eligable for registration)we do not lift this unless the new owners get the pups health checked(hip and elbow scored) at a year old and results are ok. So if they go ahead and breed from these they cannot register them with the kc. THE kc do not like this as it costs them money and why do you think you see so many gsd advertised as not kc registered because they have not been health checked and breeder would not lift the endorsements.The main problem now is that the gsd breeders may now break away from the kc

I also have to add that Strathcldye police are using many gsds at present that were breed from show lines or is this no longer classed as working

the thing is we need to cut out BYB yes the pic of the dog they put up IMO looks like a mule lol but its BYB and such that breed from dogs with no health checks there are a lot of eng breeders that do health checks also

there are police kennels using showlines yes ke my bitch is a merpol and has show lines further back and this is due to the fact there was nothing eles to use forces with established breeding programmes DO NOT use show lines any more i have spent a lot of time training at GMP and i know thier breed manager also and well im not even gonna say wat he thinks bout show line dogs as imo each to their own they import working bred dogs ect to produce strong stock for work

yes show dogs get titles in sch and as much as i love sch its not working on the st hun having a dog work in prey is one thing having them defend you life against a thug with a weapon another

as i have said b4 this to me doesnt make show dogs any less of a dog just not the dog i want at my side wen the shit hits the fan, they are diff in many ways just like pet sheps are to your show type

how many of the forces dogs have been health checked i was recently reading that the forces with there own breeding programmes dont do this but dont know if this is true. Maybe you can check this?( its down to the cost apparently)
Our bitch is from a champion show dog and 2 of her litter mates are currently serving with the police force. Not that there was nowt else to use and if you ever seen a uk breed survey year book you would see how many show breeders supply dogs for the services
Our dogs are pets first show dogs 2nd we go along for the fun day out and to meet experienced breeders

i wouldnt have bought my merpol bitch if the police hadnt done the nessisary health tests hun and yes forces do i cant speak for all forces as the smaller ones may not i dont know will ask pam for you but then not everyone inc show breeders do all health tests hardly any do elbow scoring do they hopefully ppl will also now check for DM in their lines too with the new blood test but i dought it very much

again didnt say forces havent used showlines but ones with established kennels use pure working lines GMP are using some of the best european lines at the mo wen i was there on each ocassion we had a Maus van Tikerhook son out with us and wat a dog he was
my point is show breeders want to get away from the ENG type shep well i think its a bit stupid why not help make the breed better in every poss way insead of saying the eng type is shit and shouldnt exsit cos it does if we shut our eyes and pretend they dont it doesnt work so why not all unite to make the breed better as the majority of ppl "joe public" buy the eng type not the german "show" type and well they dont get a look in with working breeders if they arent experienced lol

so why out cast ppl wen its not needed a dogs a dog at the end of the day one reason i hate dog shows is some (not all) ppl behind them have imo sick mentalitys win by all costs...............

i think this guy says it all


Pedigree Dogs Exposed Filmmaker Releases Extended Footage of German Shepherds
by Gustav on 29 January 2009 - 14:01

Gustav

Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:47 am
Did any of you read the last post Jemma presented in terms of breeding culture/health/results/references. The points she highlighted from articles to geneticist to police trainers, reflect empirical and practical knowledge of what IS wrong and will continue to stay wrong as long as people are putting form before function. All I hear on the other side is opinions based on what they think is asthectically right. Genetically the showline is too saturated for 15 generations on Canto/Quanto. Been saying that since the eighties(yes the Eighties), and people think they can continue to breed these genetics to each other and health checks will make it OK. Rubbish!!, and the comparative data of the London report to species of the wild proved this point. The condition of the breed in the ring for what the dog was bred for is the RESULT of this type of breeding. Bring in some opinions of military or police instructors on what type of structure is the best working structure, what type of dogs are possessing the best working temperament. Genetics is the problem in the showring and has led to the deterioration of health and temperament. Any credible geneticist will tell you this, and an analysis of the showlines by a geneticist will also tell as the article did that the showline dogs are way, way ,way, past the point of genetic diversity. Doesn't make a difference if the same dog isn't in he equation until the fourth generation if when you analyze 14 of 16 lines backward they end up with Quanto/Canto as a source. There are show breeders that have been breeding certified hips and pertinent health checks of the time for the past 25 years....the temperament hasn't improved and the structure that working venues can use hasn't improved....Why....I don't want a show person's reason, bring in practitioners that use soundness for what the dog was created for and I'll respect their opinion. But for every one police/herding trainer that you bring me that feels that the showline structure is correct form for function, I will get 10 of those REAL trainers that will tell you they don't cut it anymore. People its genetics!!!!!! and from the sound of some your posts you don't get it, and if you say you get it and continue to breed these lines together(but with health checks), you are just pissing in the wind!!